Unidentified railway uniform ties

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The editor owns some railway uniform ties that cannot presently be identified. Can you assist?

unknown tie
Unknown tie 1

This tie is grey with blue stripes, the stripes containing a red and white motif. It is relatively narrow. The colours suggest something related to Network SouthEast, the width suggesting a similar era. The motif has the appearance of a white-crowned red rose. However, the 'crown' is underneath, not above, the flower.

unknown tie
Unknown tie 2

This tie is grey with blue and white stripes. The stripes are graduated being slightly lighter at the top and darker at the bottom edge. It is known that this tie is a post-privatisation item. It appears that this was a late Thameslink item before the franchise passed to First Capital Connect.

If you can identify either, please contact the editor who will be pleased to hear from you.